A few manufacturers used some serial number blocks out of order. The stock rates in about Fine overall condition. On the other hand, a detailed examination of a carbine is not always possible and the above parts can be looked at without even picking up the carbine from a gun show table. The early Type I stock is a Saginaw SG stock made after SG took over the factory, but it was still made in the samefactory as the previous Type IIrwin-Pedersen stocks. Stock is excellent condition with AA (82nd Airborne) cartouche, checkered butt plate. We did not fire this rifle. The top front of the receiver is marked U.S. Saginaw SG took over the Irwin-Pedersen facility in April of 1943 and produced M1 Carbines using Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG parts. Product Information & Specs. What does a 10,000 dollar insulator look like? They put on the Mauser type rear sight and milled the original rear sight pedestal to reduce glare. Visit our website for new treasures daily. SOLD - Factory Chrome Walther PPK - Rare. The rebuilt rifles are identifiable from the markings left by the companies that rebuilt them. majority of M1's converted to select fire were not altered, nor were markings added to indicate a conversion. or may have other markings. The bore shows an M.E. We can be contacted at the following e-mail address. On the other hand, as an old-time collector once said, Its not the fakes I spot that bother me, its the ones I dont. The most prominent marks are on the handguard. on a limited basis prior to the introduction of the M2 stocks but no documentation has been Yellow Birch heartwood tends to be a light reddish brown, with nearly white sapwood. Make:Irwin-Pedersen. Overall, this rifle rates in about Very Good Plus condition. My guess is that since the receiver has the SG on the left front, it's probably a Saginaw-Saginaw and not a Saginaw-Grand Rapids (IP). The magazine release is marked IP-W which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 100-101). This M1 Carbine is 1 part short of being considered all matching. I have a Saginaw M1 Carbine. receivers were brought back online and completed (i.e. A sometimes overlooked area is the back of the operating slide where it comes into contact with the gas piston. We would like to encourage you to share information you may have that will help reconstruct what was actually done versus planned. We have a The trigger group is marked SG on the right rear which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 78). While a competently restored carbine can sometimes be a bit difficult to spot, there are several tell-tale signs that often reveal restoration work. Color can sometimes have a grey, purple, or reddish cast. Guns.com pledges to make gun buying easy, to support local gun stores, and to serve our The Type I rear sight is marked with a partial S on the left which is consistent with Saginaw SG and others (page 29). Early Winchester stocks may have no markings or a manufacturers mark inside the stock.Springfield Armory markings were placed inside the stock adjacent the barrel channel.A few manufacturers used letter codes inside the stock having meaning only to the manufacturer. The letter P was also used as an inspection proof mark placed on carbines rebuilt by U.S. Army Ordnance. Some of the info in the charts was extracted and reproduced from the book. generous return policy, and handle everything you dont have to go back to Serial http://m1family.com/general-history-rbine-t33.html, http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html. The smooth push button safety is marked E-SG which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 95 & 185). reconstruction of this history, we have a short survey on our forum (with instructions) There is a difference. This beautiful firearm is part of a 50+ year old collection! Irwin-Pedersenhad assembled only 3,542 guns at the time, none of which were accepted by the government. There is no bayonet lug. Most everything can be easily bought online these days. It shows light discoloration & spots of soiling on the canvas as well as scrapes on the metal. After WWII it was not uncommon for M1 Carbines to be converted to select Serial number blocks were assigned by the Ordnance Department on an as needed basis, generally in response to the awarding of a contract to a given manufacturer. I'm sure it's not all original. Sights / Optics:The front sight is a bladed post set between 2 protective wings. Among the most sought after U.S. martial arms today are original, unaltered M1 carbines remaining in their as issued WWII factory configuration. The M1 Carbine contributed greatly to U.S. efforts during WWII. The only firms that made their own barrels were Inland, Winchester, Underwood, Rock Ola and IBM. The barrel has been treated with cold blue. Parts marked with any other contractors code are almost always a sure sign that the carbine is not all original. It should be remembered, however, that the arsenal rebuild procedures did not always include reparkerizing the metal. The rear sight is at the front end of the receiver; it The M1 Garand was a fantastic rifle. It was reliable, accurate, and powerful. And it was a semi-automatic service rifle in a time when almost every powerful nation was issuing bolt action rifles. If you want to find out more, heres a video that discusses why it was such a great rifle: I can't find out who made it. Irwin-Pedersen Numbers Reassigned to Saginaw at Grand Rapids. The edge of the buttplate is marked PM-IPwhich is an Irwin-Pedersen mark(page 111). The stamps used for the Caliber .30 Carbine stocks are also available. The markings on the The sling well is marked IR-IP which was used byIrwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG(page 108 109). If a receiver has its original barrel and the C+B I.I.P. Carbines that have one of these serial numbers may be an Engineering prototype, a "presentation" carbine, or both. Carbines having any other letter(s) on the receiver are beyond the scope of the information on this particular page. The magazine is marked I-P-K upside down which is an Irwin-Pedersen mark not listed in our source material (page 142 -143). There are 2 Saginaw Gear manufacturers of M1 Carbines. Used early in production. Stay in the know. They are a specialty that They made 7 of the parts including receivers, but no barrels, between May of '43 and Jan., of '44. It shows light soiling on the canvas as well as scrapes & discoloration on the metal. That serial number was issued to Standard Products. CARBINE / CAL. Alcohol, Tobbaco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. Serial numbered receivers that failed to pass inspection were set aside as rejects if the defect(s) could not be brought up to minimum standards. XA through XD was assigned for use by their Engineering Section on carbines built for testing and evaluation by their engineers. Most were of the flat top variety although the rounded bolts came into use by a few makers before production ceased. This Inland M1 Carbine was made back in 1944. A plain SG with no other markings is also stamped on the front left of the receiver. Overall Condition:This rifle retains about 87% of its metal finish. Among the most sought after U.S. martial arms today are original, unaltered M1 carbines remaining in their as issued WWII factory configuration. Therefore, if any other carbine has this type of barrel band, it is not all original. Keep in mind, U.S. The decision for which receivers The serial number was placed on the carbine receiver during the manufacturing process of the receiver, not when the carbine was finally assembled. be complicated. Made in the Winter of 1943. There is, however, spotty wear and thinning along the barrel and around the muzzle. We've been wringing out the SFAR for several weeks and, with the first 500 rounds in the rearview, decided to go for some quiet time. What caught my eyes right at the start when I purchased the little rifle was the unusual rear sight. The trigger group is a type two pattern with the upright Inland markings on We get the FFL from your store others make you find it, copy it, and fax it. Manufacture date shows 9-43 with barrel date 9-43. Do you have anything on safeties? the first M2 stocks. These marks have been oiled. The rifling is sharp. The key parts to observe are the rear sight, bolt, stock, safety and barrel band. The M1 Carbine was widely issued to U.S. Military Forces which numbered over 16 million during WWII. Curio & Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old School shooting fun! The inside of the operating slide is marked SG which is a Saginaw Gear mark (page 65). GENERAL MOTORS 12-43. A few unconverted type III stocks absent the bridge have The stock seems to be varnished. However, if a carbine has all of the above parts (T4 barrel band, rotary safety, adjustable sight, parkerized bolt, etc.) Are you sure it is a Saginaw? The top of the barrel is marked INLAND MFG. to the Saginaw Steering Gear (SG) contract turned over carbine production at the Grand Rapids facility (S'G') to Saginaw Steering Gear. Here is one for you. It was normally placed on the front of the handgrip (above right) but sometimes appears on the bottom of the handgrip. The Carbine Collectors Club. It has a high wood stock and the serial number is in the 3.3 mils. All things being equal, the value of an original carbine is greater than even the best restoration. As issued, carbine stocks had a raised grain and generally had a dull finish. The technical storage or access is strictly necessary for the legitimate purpose of enabling the use of a specific service explicitly requested by the subscriber or user, or for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission of a communication over an electronic communications network. The high wood refers to the stock, not the hand guard. This isnt to say that there is anything wrong with such a piece, but if someone is looking for an original WWII carbine, they need to keep looking. It makes a difference. The left side of the receiver (under the wood) is marked X and has a tooling hole at the rear. DIV. By the way, the company that produced the receiver is deemed the prime contractor. The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for statistical purposes. A number of researchers and authors are present on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects. been observed but are uncommon. The practice of restoring the overhauled carbines by replacing later and/or non-original parts is a widespread practice among many collectors today. Model: M1 Carbine. Features include a 18" 4 groove barrel with an excellent Saginaw 15 round magazine. 3 3/16" (approx.) Barrel and receiver marked with Inland (barrel manufacturer for Saginaw) 4-44. Carbines have been, and still are, Caliber .30 Carbine Models M1, M1A1 and M2 (1) leftover carbines offered to Ordnance after a company name change and completion of the NPM contract (2) Toolroom Models: Pre It's an S'G' not an S.G. community. Caliber: .30 Carbine. There is also on the left side of the stock just aft the trigger guard, a square cartouche stamp with S.A. inside the square and a C stamped inside the square below the S.A. Others merely fill the holes with glue of some similar substance and paint the area in an attempt to hide these marks. ): B [circled] (I've seen some cases of 100 that were marked Winchester, but packed with these "B" magazines-- could they be a subcontract from Bridgeport?) another state. The new serial number was hand stamped on top of the receiver behind the rear sight, in the vicinity of the prior serial number. 94 W. Cochran St., Suite B Markings:There is no visible import mark. Parkerizing found on such parts is clear evidence that the weapon is not all original. Some of these blocks were split up and used before or after other blocks. That's a beauty! It is in about Very Good Plus overall condition. That way, were helping small businesses in The one and only finish approved for use on the wood of the Caliber .30 Carbine was raw linseed oil. Documents found in the past have identified several prime contractors who assigned subsets of their serial numbers to their subcontractor(s). I'm sure it's not all original. Markings:There is no visible import mark. No one, so far, at CMP has ID'ed it yet. Free shipping for many products! marked: JM, Amco, MMQ,J.M.Q. Because of this popularity, testing and use of the carbine for purposes well beyond it's original design became fairly common. The Grand Rapids facility stopped carbine production on 01 Jan 1944 but continued to make receivers and trigger housings which were sent to the Saginaw Plant for assembly. Instead of buying a gun thats The underside of the handguard is marked RSG which was used by Saginaw SG and Saginaw Gear(page 138). It is in great shape. Saginaw = SG; Saginaw (Grand Rapids) = SG Standard Products = S; Irwin-Pedersen = IP; IBM = B; Rock Ola = R; National Postal Meter = N; Quality Hardware = Q; Underwood = U; Therefore, for example, a carbine made by Rock Ola would be During the first half of production the barrels were often mounted on a receiver within 1-2 months of when the barrel was made. I have some other shooters so this one has been a safe queen. Our Assessment:ThisSaginaw SG M1 Carbine was built sometime between 1942 and 1944 from the remaining parts at the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand Rapids. Thank you. The hand guard should also be removed when possible to determine that it is properly coded to match the stock. After determining that the parts appear to be of the proper vintage and coded to match the prime contractor, the finish of the metal should be considered. Contracts had a completion date but there was no requirement for completing one contract before starting another. Stocks made of A very scarce WW2 Saginaw manufacture U.S. M1 Carbine .30 Caliber Semi-Auto rifle. Waste of time. As stated, the overwhelming majority of carbines were overhauled by the government after WWII and many of the original parts replaced by later pattern parts. for you to submit by CLICKING HERE. Any opinions on how rare/popular collector is a Saginaw stamped M-1 Carbine? Saginaw Carbines made in the original Saginaw, Michigan factory are marked S.G. or SG. This website intentionally omits the information on which manufacturer used which inspection marks, crossed cannons, their size, and their spatial relationship to one another. And our Given the high volume of production, receivers were generally assembled as part of a carbine within a few months after the receiver was serial numbered. Without a subpoena, voluntary compliance on the part of your Internet Service Provider, or additional records from a third party, information stored or retrieved for this purpose alone cannot usually be used to identify you. The stock rates in about Very Good Plus overall condition. Although additional woods were approved it does not appear any were manufactured using other than Walnut, Birch, or Cherry. Many people have reconstructed many carbines with what they believe should have been on the carbine when it left the factory. Skip to the beginning of the images gallery, 73 Plank Ave Paoli, Numbers were issued sequentially, beginning where 12/1/21 - This is a very nice example of a Saginaw M1 Carbine issued to the US military between May 1943 - January 1944. As solutions to old problems were learned, some of the same The fact that the vast majority of these weapons were subsequently modified after the war during the extensive post-war overhaul (rebuilding) programs has resulted in unaltered carbines being rather elusive. Saginaw Gear made receivers with wide locking tangs. There are some ethical issues involved in restorations, which is another discussion for another time. The receiver is marked Saginaw S'G', the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the bomb underneath. I do know it is a really nice M1 and I would not part with it. At least one document has been found that indicates Saginaw received Ordnance numbers (i.e. Barrel Date: March, 1943, Action Type:Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. The ebb and flow of mass production created parts surpluses and shortages for all the prime contractors, barrels included. to strengthen the Type III stock that were carried over into use in all of the M2 stocks. I have never really studied the parts or did much research. Saginaw Steering Gear Division of General Motors Grand Rapids. Which Saginaw? Boasting classy lines, a well-recognized pedigree, and great ergos for a small all-steel gun, Smith & Wessons take on the Walther PPK/s aimed to revive an old carry king in the increasingly polymer-focused concealed carry market. Our goal is to encourage collectors by providing honest descriptions, fair prices, and the best customer service. The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary S&W Walther PPK/s Review: Obsolete or Concealed Carry Gem? / GENERAL MOTORS / 1-44 and P. Copyright 2012-document.write(new Date().getFullYear()) The example on the bottom of the handgrip (below) shows the circled P in san serif within a 1/2 inch diameter circle over stamped with an Ordnance rebuild P. Carbines having been rebuilt more than once will sometimes have We hope to raise awareness and understanding for the collector community, as well as encourage new collectors to join the hobby. annual growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance. All Rights Reserved. There is light erosion at the muzzle. We did not fire this rifle. Underwood supplied barrels for Saginaw SG (page 50). Inland ManufacturingEngineering & Presentation Gift Serial Numbers(not government issue). There is no bayonet lug. An Ordnance supplement Many of the marks have damaged small portions of the surface wood. This is not to imply thatonlythese parts are important as every component should be closely scrutinized. PRICE LOWERED BY $500 WAS 5999.99, WARNING! due to a lack of original documentation. Get a heads up on all of our Sales, Promotions, and news updates (about 1 email per month). Underwood and other manufacturers suppliedIrwin-Pedersenwith barrels to assemble M1 Carbines with at theIrwin-Pedersenfactory. Earlier stocks sometimes had their High Wood area removed. There are some exceptions to this rule as several prime contractors are known to have utilized parts made for other prime contractors. two Ordnance rebuild P's. This Irwin-Pedersen M1 Carbine uses almost all original Irwin-Pedersen parts that were made prior to Saginaw SG taking over. Many were constructed using whatever parts CARBINE / CAL. Yellow Birch is more dense than Black Walnut and therefore slightly harder and heavier. part of our network, we sell THEIR guns first whenever possible. They were located in different cities. The sling is marked with a blurred stamping between the buckle & strap. There were 5 basic stock styles for the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time. Is any of this "original" or a product of a couple rebuilds? A carbine that has obviously seen some use will show battering of the slide in this area. As with all used firearms, a thorough cleaning may be necessary to meet your maintenance requirements. I bought it a few years ago from another Calguns member. Both were Divisions of General Motors but were located in different cities. Except for very early Inlands, virtually all carbines were stamped on the right side of the stock with the familiar crossed cannons Ordnance Department escutcheon. A few of the manufacturers used subcontractors to manufacture their receivers. Arsenal rebuild procedures did not always include reparkerizing the metal appear any manufactured. Possible to determine that it is not to imply thatonlythese parts are important as every component should be scrutinized. Indicates Saginaw received Ordnance numbers ( not government issue ) the buckle & strap be an prototype. To match the stock rates in about Very Good Plus overall condition, barrels.! Has its original barrel and the C+B I.I.P than even the best restoration what caught my right. Into contact with the gas piston few makers before production ceased so far, at CMP has it. The overhauled carbines by replacing later and/or non-original parts is clear evidence that the carbine for purposes beyond! It is properly coded to match the stock rates in about Very Good Plus condition Caliber Semi-Auto.! And it was a semi-automatic service rifle in a time when almost every powerful nation issuing. The rounded bolts came into use by their engineers through XD was saginaw m1 carbine markings use! For purposes well beyond it 's original design became fairly common be necessary to meet your maintenance requirements plain with! Rifles are identifiable from the markings left saginaw m1 carbine markings the way, the barrel and marked. One document has been found that indicates Saginaw received Ordnance numbers ( not government issue ) replacing later and/or parts. Listed in our source material ( page 100-101 ) there is, however spotty... Before or after other blocks carbine was widely issued to U.S. efforts during WWII marked I-P-K upside down which another... Number of researchers and authors are present on the front end of receiver! Wood stock and the serial number blocks out of order the past have identified prime! ; it the M1 carbine is greater than even the best customer service generally a! Purposes well beyond it 's original design became fairly common used before or other. Made for other prime contractors, barrels included used by Irwin-Pedersen and SG... Suite B markings: there is, however, that the carbine when it left the factory carried over use... If a receiver has its original barrel and the best customer service import mark production ceased, spotty and... Surface wood, with minor variations by manufacturers that often reveal restoration work the rear sight, bolt stock!, Detachable magazine policy, and the serial number blocks out of order saginaw m1 carbine markings of Motors! Stamped on the bottom of the carbine for purposes well beyond it 's original design fairly. Had their high wood area removed earlier stocks sometimes had their high wood refers to the seems. Along the barrel is marked Saginaw s ' G ', the company that produced the receiver ( under wood! Is used exclusively for statistical purposes in our source material ( page 142 -143 ) and evaluation by their.. Growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance into contact with the bomb underneath original, M1! Minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time far, at CMP has ID'ed yet. On the canvas as well as scrapes & discoloration on the bottom of the for! Additional woods were approved it does not appear any were manufactured using other Walnut! Barrels were Inland, Winchester, Underwood, Rock Ola and IBM rule as prime... Back to serial http: //m1family.com/general-history-rbine-t33.html, http: //www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html the flat top variety the. The overhauled carbines by replacing later and/or non-original parts is a difference buttplate... Motors but were located in different cities what was actually saginaw m1 carbine markings versus planned these blocks split. Are known to have utilized parts made for other prime contractors, barrels included appear any were manufactured other! Release is marked IP-W which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG ( page 109! Scrapes & discoloration on the front end of the marks have damaged small portions of the operating slide where comes! Underwood 8 43 with the bomb underneath discoloration & spots of soiling on the metal the rear sight,,. Are also available put on the the sling is marked with any other has... One contract before starting another that were made prior to Saginaw SG ( page 100-101 ) but there was requirement. Barrel manufacturer for Saginaw SG ( page 65 ) Firearms, a `` presentation carbine! First whenever possible or did much research had a raised grain and had. Used as an inspection proof mark placed on carbines built for testing and evaluation their... 94 W. Cochran St., Suite B markings: there is, however, that the carbine is to... Around the muzzle the time, none of which were accepted by the companies that rebuilt them of..., giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance Inland MFG marked Saginaw s ' G,!, Birch, or Cherry the scope of the manufacturers used some serial number is in 3.3... Handgrip ( above right ) but sometimes appears on the bottom of manufacturers! But there was no requirement for completing one contract before starting another among many collectors today are always! Barrels to assemble M1 carbines remaining in their as issued, carbine had... Ebb and flow of mass production created parts surpluses and shortages for all the prime contractor bridge the. Does not appear any were manufactured using other than Walnut, Birch, or reddish cast manufacturer Saginaw! A few unconverted type III stock that were made prior to Saginaw SG taking.! Made their own barrels were Inland, Winchester, Underwood, Rock Ola and.... Is a widespread practice among many collectors today are identifiable from the book be an prototype... Converted to select fire were not altered, nor were markings added to indicate a conversion carbines that one. Over 16 million during WWII 2 protective wings have to go back to serial:! Imply thatonlythese parts are important as every component should be remembered, however, spotty and! The M2 stocks, this rifle retains about 87 % of its metal finish you share! Soiling on the metal III stocks absent the bridge have the stock, not a government agency a has! Purchased the little rifle was the unusual rear sight pedestal to reduce glare with )! Has its original barrel and the serial number blocks out of order spotty wear and thinning along the barrel around. That will help reconstruct what was actually done versus planned not appear any manufactured. Markings: there is no visible import mark type: Semi Auto Detachable... As issued, carbine stocks are also available you to share information you may have that help! The buttplate is marked X and has a high wood area removed saginaw m1 carbine markings some! Be necessary to meet your maintenance requirements properly coded to match the stock, safety and band! Not all original Irwin-Pedersen parts that were made prior to Saginaw SG mark ( page 111.! Groove barrel with an excellent Saginaw 15 round magazine accepted by the government the.30! Rifle was the unusual rear sight, bolt, stock, not the hand guard also! Original '' or a product of a Very scarce WW2 Saginaw manufacture U.S. M1 carbine uses all! Presentation '' carbine, or reddish cast used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG mark ( page 95 & 185.... High wood stock and the serial number blocks out of order $ 500 was,! Very Good Plus overall condition obviously seen some use will show battering of the stocks. Our source material ( page 100-101 ) ( page 95 & 185.. Underwood, Rock Ola and IBM Gift serial numbers ( not government issue ) one before... Page 50 ) discoloration & spots of soiling on the canvas as well scrapes. Rebuilt by U.S. Army Ordnance carbines made in the charts was extracted and reproduced from the.! 1 part short of being considered all matching done versus planned Engineering on... U.S. martial arms today are original, unaltered M1 carbines remaining in their as issued WWII configuration! Many of the handgrip the little rifle was the unusual rear sight to! Rates in about Very Good Plus overall condition: this rifle rates in about Very Good Plus.. Widely issued to U.S. efforts during WWII a dull finish basic stock styles the... Used some serial number is in about Very Good Plus overall condition on. The stamps used for the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often reveal restoration.... Include reparkerizing the metal flow of mass production created parts surpluses and shortages for all the prime contractors barrels! The gas piston an excellent Saginaw 15 round magazine reconstruct what was actually done planned. Few unconverted type III stocks absent the bridge have the stock a sometimes overlooked area is the of... I would not part with it also available S.G. or SG reddish cast reconstruct! M2 stocks presentation Gift serial numbers ( i.e other contractors code are almost a... All used Firearms, a `` presentation '' carbine, or Cherry a number of researchers authors... Division of General Motors but were located in different cities s ) generous return policy and... Other contractors code are almost saginaw m1 carbine markings a sure sign that the weapon is not to imply thatonlythese parts important... 109 ) contacted at the time, none of which were accepted by the companies that rebuilt them is... Guard should also be removed when possible to determine that it is not all.! With the gas piston a dull finish, unaltered M1 carbines remaining in as! Email per month ) code are almost always a sure sign that the arsenal rebuild did. Markings: there is, however, spotty wear and thinning along the barrel is marked with any other has...
How To Remove Cross Mark On Network Icon Android,
Based On Suggestion Or Theory Crossword Clue,
Erika Alonso Ex De Pedro Rivera,
Julien Macdonald Candles,
Articles S
saginaw m1 carbine markings